American Sons: Reflections On Being Muslim In America

Wed, 12/20/2006 - 1:55pm

When: November 10, 2010 at the Downtown Library: Multi-Purpose Room

Co-sponsored by the Interfaith Council for Peace and Justice, this event, moderated by Dr. Sherman Jackson, will feature five Michigan men from various ethnic backgrounds who will discuss being Muslim in America from their own experiences and local perspectives. Dr. Sherman Jackson is currently the Arthur F. Thurnau Professor of Near Eastern Studies, Visiting Professor of Law and Professor of Afro-American Studies at the University of Michigan. Other panelists include Ann Arbor resident, teacher and administrator Khidr Naeem; UM Graduate and Film Producer, Chris Abdur-Rahman Blauvelt; local attorney, Haaris Ahmad; local doctor, Asad Tarsin; and medical professional, Shamael Haque.

Transcript

• [00:00:23.45] TIM GRIMES: Good evening everybody and welcome to the Ann Arbor District Library. My name is Tim Grimes, I'm the manager of community relations and marketing for the library. And thank you so much, this is a wonderful crowd, thank you so much for coming out this evening. Tonight's program is co-sponsored by The Interfaith Council for Peace and Justice. The title is "American Sons: Profound Reflections on being Muslim in America." And it is my great pleasure to introduce Ron Gregg, from the Interfaith Council, who will introduce tonight's program. Thank you.
• [00:01:01.90] RON GREGG: Thanks, Tim. I am a member of the Common Ground Working Group of the Interfaith Council for Peace and Justice. And we want to also welcome each of you, and tell you how much we appreciate your coming tonight. We also are grateful for the Ann Arbor District Library and their hosting of this program.
• [00:01:25.67] This is a discussion, tonight, with a very distinguished panel on what it means to be Muslim in North America. The panel will be moderated by Dr. Sherman Jackson, a well known and very honored professor of near-eastern studies, law, and afro-American studies at the University of Michigan. Previously, he taught at Texas, Indiana, and Wayne state university's. Not only does Dr. Jackson teach, and do research, and lecture, but he also writes a lots of books. The most recent being Islam and the Problem of Black Suffering, which was published just last year. That same year, Dr. Jackson was named one of the 500 most influential Muslims in the world by the Royal Islamic Strategic Studies Center in Amman, Jordan. And was also recognized as one of the 10 leading experts on Islam in America. It's hard to do any better than that. So please, help me welcome Dr. Jackson.
• [00:02:43.38] SHERMAN JACKSON: Thank you very much for that very kind introduction. I'm told that I have about 10 minutes to try to introduce the whole topic of Islam in America. Anybody who knows me, knows that usually it takes me longer than 10 minutes even to say my name. But I'm going to try to do so in a way that will be a coherent.
• [00:03:05.68] The history of Islam in America is actually a quite a long history. At the same time, it is a somewhat uneven history. The presence of Muslims in America goes back to the very beginning, not simply of the republic, but actually of the settlement of America as part of the New World. We know that among the population of both slaves who were brought from Africa, and even some of the indentured servants who came along with the Spanish and others, included a population of Muslims. And this goes back to the very early centuries.
• [00:03:52.68] The numbers of Muslims would increase, somewhat, after that as the importation of slaves from Africa reached full tide in the 18th century. And so we have the presence of Muslims quite early on in America.
• [00:04:10.69] And this is not simply mythical. It's a very interesting phenomenon, in that we actually have Arabic manuscripts that are survivals from African slaves, who were actually in America in the 18th and 19th centuries. And there've actually been who have worked on some of these manuscripts. So their presence is not simply mythological. We have tangible, concrete evidence of their presence.
• [00:04:40.00] These are, of course, the first Muslims to come to America. Now what we are seeing today in terms of the presence of African American Muslims, oddly, does not go back to the beginning of the presence of African Muslims in America. The African Muslim community on American soil is not able to perpetuate itself. Whereas, if you get a mother or a father from Africa, who happens to be Muslim, 9 1/2 times out of 10, the children would not survive as Muslims.
• [00:05:17.59] Of course, they weren't allowed to sustain marriages and families. And they were not allowed, really, to establish even places of worship. So it was a very difficult task to perpetuate Islam within that slave community. So if 9 1/2 out of 10 times you would lose the son or daughter, 10 out of 10 times you would lose the grandchildren. And so what we have is a situation, whereby Islam in the African community is not able to perpetuate itself on American soil.
• [00:05:49.48] What we're seeing today, in terms of the spread of Islam among African Americans, is actually a 20th century phenomenon. And I'll come back to that in just a minute. In the meantime, I want to talk about two separate waves of immigration from the Muslim world. The first wave actually begins in the late 19th century, and extends into the early parts of the 20th century. Most of the Muslims, who came to America from the Muslim world, came from the Fertile Crescent. They were subsidiaries of the Ottoman Empire. And they came to America, for the same reason that everybody else came to America, to find a better life.
• [00:06:36.06] At that time, however, there were not really critical masses of immigrants from the Muslim world. And you get small pockets of immigrants Muslims attempting to reestablish or reconstitute Muslim communities in America, but that's a very difficult process. One of the reasons for that is, that unlike the situation in the late 20 century, in the late 19th and early 20th century, most of the Muslims who came from the Muslim world, came from more rural areas. They they were farmers, and artisans and, what you might call, blue collar workers. And therefore, they did not have either the cultural sophistication in every instance, or the surplus income to really build and sustain institutions.
• [00:07:27.71] The real change would come in 1965. In 1965, of course, the American government prorogued what was called the National Origins Act. The National Origins Act was an act of Congress that was designed to ensure that the population of the United States remain predominantly Northwest European. In 1965 the Johnson Administration rescinded that bill.
• [00:08:00.14] And this opened the floodgates for immigration from the Muslim world. And this is the beginning of the phenomenon, that we are witnessing in large part today, in terms of the large numbers of Muslims who immigrate to America. And then we're getting second and third generation immigrant Muslims-- well, they are no longer an immigrant Muslims-- but second and third generation Muslims from those kinds of backgrounds.
• [00:08:31.83] Now those Muslims are, in a very real sense, very different from the first wave of Muslims who emigrated from the Muslim world. And they are different in that they, i.e., the second wave of immigrant Muslims, are highly educated. And therefore, they become a very capable community. They're able to generate surplus income. They have education and sophistication.
• [00:09:06.75] They have contacts, of course, because they're going to the best universities, in which they're intermingling with other Americans, and they are networking with other Americans. And this puts them in a position to build institutions, schools, mosques, Islamic centers, and to perpetuate and sustain themselves. And so, what we have is a situation that's very different from what we saw in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
• [00:09:34.75] Now alongside this, I want to bring back up to speed the African American contingent. Because these are two very different trajectories of the historical development of Islam in America. The African American community, in terms of the establishment of critical masses within the black American community, actually goes back to the beginning of the 20th century. It's a very rich and detailed history, but I want to try and condense it in, I guess, the two minutes that I have left.
• [00:10:14.52] Going back to the beginning of the first decades of the 20 century, the spread of Islam in the black community actually begins with what we might call the proto Islamic movements. Now, these were movements among black Americans that had, for one reason or the other, become disaffected from Christianity, and began to search for alternative modalities of religiosity in America.
• [00:10:49.33] Islam was something that they found, but more as an idea, an orientation, and, perhaps most importantly, an alternative vocabulary. You have to go back to the 1910s, 1920s to remember or to recall that, at that time, black Americans are still in the stage of trying to carve out a sort of identity that would enable them to escape the negative implications of blackness that had been imposed upon them by the dominant culture.
• [00:11:24.85] Islam provided an avenue to that, because Islam is looked upon as being an entity over which the dominant culture exercised no control. And so blacks would be free to engage in this process of self identity formation as Muslims, or as people associated with Islam, in ways that they would not quite be able to do so as Christians at that time.
• [00:11:54.07] It's important to note here, however, that the Islam that they attached themselves to, was more and idea, an ideal than a reality. And this is why I call it the proto Islamic movements. These were movements that were not founded in doctrines and religious practices that historical Islam would recognize as being orthodox. In fact, they were quite heterodox in orientation.
• [00:12:25.55] Nevertheless, this phase of the development was extremely important, in as much as, it had the effect of ingratiating the black community, in general, with the idea of Islam. Which is to say, that it's not very long before Islam in the black community comes to be recognized as a legitimate form of an alternative mode of American blackness. In other words, whereas, and this is probably still the case today, culturally, civilizationally, or historically, one might assume a certain amount of contradiction-- shall we call it-- between American whiteness and Islam, the pro Islamic movements led to a situation where all dichotomies, all contradiction between being black and being Muslim had been removed, even for people who were not Muslims.
• [00:13:34.57] In other words, Islam became a legitimate expression of blackness within the broader black American community. And what this does is, it opens the way for, what I like to refer to as, communal conversions. That is to say that, not the entire community converts, but it produces a situation whereby it becomes quite natural for an African American to be a Muslim in ways that would not quite apply, in the same degree, to white Americans.
• [00:14:12.94] And so what we have, are two large arteries entering into the basin of American Islam. We have the African American community evolving out of this sort of heterodox history, which itself transforms into orthodoxy between the 1960s and the 1980s. So by the time we get to the late 1980s, of all of the black Americans who had entered into the heterodox representations of Islam, upwards of 95% of them would now be orthodox Sunni Muslims.
• [00:14:51.84] And so what we have are, black American orthodox Sunni Muslims coming from their American background evolving, as they evolve. We have the large number of immigrant Muslims, and their children, and grandchildren, who have come from the Muslim world post 1965. And then in addition to that, we have any number of white American converts, and Hispanic converts, and from various other backgrounds-- this is America after all, we have all kinds of backgrounds here. And we get these sort of smatterings of convergence around the edges as it were.
• [00:15:33.38] This makes up the body of Islam in America. And I'll just end by saying that the reality of Islam from within the Muslim community, I think could probably be characterized by two very vibrant, critical conversations that are taking place within the Muslim community. On the one hand, there is this sort of intramural conversation. That is to say, black Americans, white Americans, Hispanic, immigrant Muslims, and by the way, I've done immigrant Muslims, in a sense, a disservice because it makes it sound like they all come from the same village. No, they come from some 70 countries in the Muslim world.
• [00:16:22.92] And so you have all of that variety now in this new space, trying to figure out what the mode of a standard, dignified, American Islamic existence is going to look like. And there is massive amount of a negotiation going on within that community as it attempts to find its new space. It's very interesting that the American Muslim community is, perhaps, the most diversified community of Muslims in the world. And it now has to negotiate all of that diversity.
• [00:17:04.11] Second, there is now between the Muslim community and the dominant community in America, what one might want to call, a 9/11 post script, as it were. Muslims are now in the position of trying to renegotiate their space in American society post 9/11, and the fallout that emerges out of 9/11.
• [00:17:38.30] I'll just say this, that however that conversation goes, when one looks at the Muslim community, one should see a duck or a swan moving across a pond. On the surface, the duck or the swam appears to be moving quite effortlessly. But if you just could peer down underneath the water, you'll see those feet moving feverishly. And so we have this relationship between the Muslim community and the dominant community which is visible to everyone, but underneath the surface there are these intramural conversations that are taking place within the Muslim community. And I think that, what we're going to see tonight in our presentations are various and sundry perspectives that represent these different historical trajectories that contribute to what Islam in America has become today. Thank you very much.
• [00:18:47.92] I'll stand here too, so nobody thinks that I'm supposed to be speaking anymore. I want to introduce then our first speaker for the night, Mr. Khidr Naeem. Mr. Naeem is a native of New York City, where he embraced Islam in 1980 through an organization called Dar al Islam. The Dar al-Islam served a largely African American Sunni community, and represented the largest American congregation in New York at the time. He left New York in 1987, and lived briefly in central Florida. After earning a bachelor's degree in philosophy from the University of Central Florida in Orlando. He relocated with his family to Ann Arbor, where he has resided since 1990.
• [00:19:36.16] Mr. Naeem earned his master's degree in educational leadership and counseling from Eastern Michigan University. His career has taken him through 20 years of study, research, teaching, and administration. For the past seven years, he has taught social studies at Detroit's Henry Ford High School. He has worked in Ann Arbor's Muslim community as a teacher, and mentor, and as a trustee and executive committee officer of the Muslim Community Association of Ann Arbor. And Mr. Naeem is going to speak with us for 10 minutes. And I've been given strict instructions to be very strict on the time. And, as someone who's mostly on that side of the time keeper, I'm going to take my revenge tonight. Mr. Naeem, please.
• [00:20:26.54] KHIDR NAEEM: To my brothers and sisters, As- Salamu 'alaykumu wa rahmatu l-lahi wa barakatuh. I can start, and just more or less-- about who I was, and how I came. No, I didn't hate all white people. No, I wasn't on drugs. No, I wasn't going to jail. No, no, no, I was a young man who had both parents. I lived on Amsterdam avenue, those of you who were from New York know where that is, right up the street from the Apollo Theater-- everybody knows where that is.
• [00:21:09.93] And I started to look at some things. And when I was introduced to Islam, it is tremendously different then a lot of people were in different areas. Some people got it from their parents. And that was OK, but I felt so good when I got it. I feel personally, and I'm not going to look to the left, because these are my brothers, and their fathers and moms are my brothers and sisters. I felt like I got mine like the Prophet got his. I felt so good about this. Yeah, we was outside. Yeah, we knew about drugs. And we saw all this craziness.
• [00:21:52.84] I worked at RCA Global, and I saw this guy, and we would talk all the time. And he would tell me, hey hold on for a second, I got to do something Friday. We talk every day. And I asked him, what do you do Friday? He says, I go pay homage to my Lord. I think, God, man that was a lot to say. Just say, you go to pray. You go pay homage to your Lord, who are you, Shakespeare? So, he went, and I said, you know what, yes, that's all right. My mother wanted me to be a minister, so I'll go with you.
• [00:22:28.67] So, one Friday I went. You know where I went-- Twin Towers. I went to the Twin Towers, we walked in, they were calling the adhan, call to prayer. And I said, what's up, what's that? He said it's the call to prayer. I said, don't say it like I been here, this is my first time. What is it? So I saw, I heard, I said, wow. So we're talking, and we're talking. There were things that changed me as an individual. The things that we focused on was stop lying, be kind to your mother your father, be kind to older women.
• [00:23:08.02] Oh my God, that one beat me half to death. Because I'm a little smaller now, but at that time, you took Shahada, the declaration of Islam, you come in, any old woman, and I'm telling you we swore that they sent notices out, and when I say any-- Asian, Malaysian, Puerto Rican, Cuban, black, Chinese, anybody-- they would say, they'd have a bag, you, come here, come carry this bag for me-- over there. And this was some of the things that helped us inside.
• [00:23:45.17] We wouldn't have these nice words like, positives. Your behavior showed it. We were a de facto people. We were clean. We read like anything, because you know we was looing for pork. We read all over. I found out in 1986 that they used to spray lard in Pepsi cans to preserve the flavor. That's why it don't taste as good as it used to. Yeah, don't do that to me. We were better people.
• [00:24:14.98] I remember the first week that I Muslim, there was a priest trying to talk to some guys down in the Bowery. And the guy that was with me said, look they're trying to set up the father. So we went down there. And I knew him. Hey father, how are you doing? I like the thing, that's nice. And so we talked to the guys and say, why aren't you doing something a little kinder to the guy? He's trying to help you, he's trying to get you in touch with God. And they uttered the usual profanities.
• [00:24:44.77] And I said to the guy who told me about a Islam, I said why don't you walk them over here so I can talk to them, and started to look at what I was representing, and who I was. And the who I was, was important to me. The who I am, became important to me. And that relationship and my thankfulness to the one and only God, became a love affair. And everybody remembers their first love. You all know my wife, so those of you who do, I fell in love.
• [00:25:22.34] And I fell in love, because I couldn't believe, I was a better person. Pause with that. Yet everybody remember your first love. You don't know. I'm not talking about when you have kids, and you have your grandkids. And you know that love come out of nowhere for your grandkids. It does. You just sit there, you go, he's cute, oh my God. And then you just jacked up, because he your grandkid. But that love for you, you just never saw Allah. I never saw the Prophet. But this thing here, this was the dance, this was the bounce for all of us. and I was holding on to this.
• [00:26:00.98] And this is why I say to my brothers and sisters who, their parents were dedicated, look at them, their parents were dedicated, but I got mine like the Prophet got his. I'm sick with this. Here it come, because it is going to get stupid in a minute. When I had this, it was being better, it was being better daily. It was a better me every day. This Windsor had to be tight, the suit had-- every day God saying this is who I had to be. I had to prepare myself to be a better father, and I have five children. I had to be a better friend. I had to be a better husband.
• [00:26:45.77] And I kept doing that, and that was where my Islam was, until I started to move out. And then I started to see there were grabs. OK, you now have to pick a gang. You now have to pick some other things. You know have to put certain things in perspective. And once you start to do that, you start to see and feel the world as it is. The love is still there, and we all love we love, but there's some expenses to that.
• [00:27:27.40] So I stayed, and I kept going, and I kept pushing myself. And I push myself to the point where it's a good day when I still keep this here in my heart. And I'm not going to run you down on the street and go here, be a Muslim or whatever. But I'm telling you, you don't have to worry about anything with me, with my children, with my soul, because this thing here for us, this thing here, is a worship thing, it's a God, community thing. Don't let anybody fool you. Close your eyes, and touch your soul. You know what I'm saying is true. You want to be good, just so you can get to Heaven. Thank you.
• [00:28:25.39] SHERMAN JACKSON: I thank you so much for that. Our our next speaker is Mr. Blauvelt. Chris was born in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. He grew up in New Jersey and Massachusetts. He graduated from the University of Michigan in 2006 with a degree in engineering, and later went on to earn an MA in Educational Administration in 2007. Currently, he is the executive producer for Beyond Blue Productions, which is based in Detroit. He embraced Islam at the age of 16 while in Massachusetts. Chris Blauvelt.
• [00:29:11.03] CHRIS ABDUR-RAHMAN BLAUVELT: Thank you. In the name of God, the most gracious, the most merciful. Can everyone hear me OK? It's unfortunate that I have to follow this up, because I don't think I can top this. You can just pass on the two minute mark right now. So I guess I'll share my story. I grew up as a WASP, a white Anglo Saxon Protestant, in New England. We would go to Presbyterian church but only around the holidays: Christmas, Easter, so on and so forth.
• [00:29:49.15] And when I was about 12, I found myself facing the conflict I think a lot of Americans face, which is choosing between science and religion. And so this society, I think, it makes your choose sides, especially if you're scientifically minded. As mentioned, I got my degree in engineering, so I'm a very math, science oriented person. And so I felt from a very young age faced with this choice, do I believe in God, or do I believe in evolution. And so I began to study a little bit my family's faith history, and the history of the Christianity, and the Bible, and the history of the Church. And the more I studied, the more troubled I was. I never really had a strong, personal relationship with God.
• [00:30:43.22] And on the other hand, I looked at science, and to me it seemed very humble. That everything we believe is based on evidence, and every theory is by definition disprovable. You're always, perpetually seeking to get closer and closer to the truth through science. And around that age, around 12 or 13, I left my parents faith and I declared myself an atheist. Still going to church on Christmas and Easter so I don't upset them, but I didn't believe in God.
• [00:31:14.24] This is the way that I was until I was about 15. When I was 15 my neighbor, his name is Michael Dan, who was also my classmate in school, he became Muslim. And before that, Mike and I were really different people. He was into rap music, and he had a lot of friends that actually did really, bad stuff. And I just pretended to do bad stuff. I was into skateboarding. I had long hair and chains, and punk music, and ska and all that. I guess the professional struggle of teenagers is to figure out who they are.
• [00:31:49.97] But when Mike became Muslim, as brother Naeem indicated with his own story, he started to change a lot. And it came from inside. And normally, growing up you tell someone, someone got religious, it's like an insulting thing. It's like, she got religious, she thinks she's better than us now, or he thinks he's better than us now. But with Mike, when he became Muslim it was very genuine, it was very sincere.
• [00:32:13.15] And I just started noticing these changes slowly. We would have tennis practice, we were both on the tennis team, and he would have to go off and pray. And I was like, what is that? And I would be watching him, and started learning a little bit. What really struck me was, the beginning of junior year, there's one class that only the real go-getters in our high school would take, which is AP European History. And I walk in, and he is sitting there, and I was like, Mike I think you're lost. Because he was always a slacker, he is a smart guy, but he's always a slacker. No, I'm taking this class. And I was like, oh OK.
• [00:32:45.60] And that's when we really started to get to talk and get to know each other. Partially because, I moved to Massachusetts when I was 13, so I never fit in any one clique strongly, and on Mike's side, because he became Muslim, he couldn't really be around those people doing drugs and drinking anymore. He didn't have this core group of friends he's hanging around. So we started growing close.
• [00:33:10.79] To be honest, I thought Islam was kind of like Hinduism at first. It was like eastern religion. It had a lot of gods, and a moon god, and things like this. I has really ignorant. Even in this class, AP European History, I'm 16 years old, I had a debate with Mike that I thought all Arabs were from Saudi Arabia. Hence why they're called Arabs. And people from Egypt are not Arabs, they're Egyptians, and so on and so forth. My history teacher was aghast at that.
• [00:33:40.48] So to move forward with this story, I was impressed with Islam. It was a very simple religion. I mean it made a lot of sense to me. There is one God, that there's Prophets. And none of the Prophets share divinity, but rather they're a chain of Prophets one after the other. And I thought if Moses and Jesus could be Prophets, why not Mohammed? Peace be upon them all. And then I read the Autobiography of Malcom X, and that book really changed my life. When I read that, I sort of did hate white people a little.
• [00:34:09.97] KHIDR NAEEM: Must have been difficult.
• [00:34:15.72] CHRIS ABDUR-RAHMAN BLAUVELT: I wanted to be like brother Malcom. I wanted to put the bowtie on, and I wanted to be standing up for something. I was like, but I don't really believe in God, so I don't know how I can do that. He says in there, if you take one step towards God, God takes two steps towards you. Now, I'm a rationally minded, science oriented person, so that's a hypothesis. So I'm going to, of course, test out the hypothesis.
• [00:34:38.58] So I stopped eating pork, and going to parties with alcohol. With the intention that if this is true, may God guide me to it, and it is not true, I'm going to go back to-- in the summer have a big party. I just continued to learn more and more about Islam. And I had the opposite experience I had with my own parent's faith, in that the more that I learned about Islam, and the more I questioned it, the more I found myself being defeated by the arguments of Islam. At first, I was trying to convince Mike to become an atheist. He figured out Christianity wasn't true and just one more step there.
• [00:35:17.30] And I found myself full of questions that couldn't be answered. Who was the Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him? Was he a madman, was he magician? I couldn't figure it out. What was he seeking: power, money? None of those arguments hold up. And I studied the Qur'an, and I said, is it really possible that this book came from 1400 years ago, from a man in the desert that couldn't read or write, that lived in a society that wasn't even considered really a civilization. And a 100 years after his death, it spread from Spain to India. And I just kept looking at everything. It just seems too perfect.
• [00:35:54.79] And then I read about some things we call scientific miracles in the Qur'an. And when I read those I found, I really was flabbergasted at how to explain this religion and this book. And I reflected on something I never thought of before in my life, and I don't think many teenagers do, but what's going to happen when I die. There are all these stages when you are in high school: you're taking SATs, and getting ready for college, in college your getting ready for grad school, and then getting a job, and then getting married, and having kids, and retirement.
• [00:36:28.36] All these things you are preparing for, but they're not certainties. But there is one certainty I never had thought of to prepare for before in my life, which is death. And I thought if I die, I want to die as a Muslim And so, that's when I became Muslim. I realize, I'm going to stop here, is all I did was, I just got on the ship. And then it really set sail. Then the journey really began. Which I didn't know at the time. The journey since I became Muslim, is much more interesting than becoming Muslim. Thank you.
• [00:37:09.21] SHERMAN JACKSON: Thank you so much. Our next speaker is Mr. Haaris Ahmad. Haaris currently works as an attorney for Wayne County Corporation Counsel. He was born in New York. He's a UM alum, University of Michigan. Is an active member of the community. And the owner of I Learned on Line, which is an online tutoring company. Haaris Ahmad. me
• [00:37:41.12] HAARIS AHMAD: So today, you've got to excuse me for my voice. I just lost it. I think yesterday, and of course it was perfect timing. Usually, I'm a lot louder, but hopefully you can hear me. My understanding of this was, to reflect on our experiences are similar and different experiences as Muslims in America and as American Muslims. And so I'm going to share some of my reflections and my experience with you. I was born in New York, as Dr. Jackson mentioned, in the Bronx. My mother worked over there. She's a physician there, and so I was born in the hospital that she worked at. I should say that, my father came to New York in 1963. So actually before that 1965 act, so he was here before that law. So he had been here for 13 years before he got married to my mom. And then they had me soon after. I was in fact their first anniversary gift. So my birthday is on their anniversary, so I just conveniently forget their anniversary when March 16 rolls around.
• [00:38:55.12] After about three years living in Manhattan, my mom decided that this is not the best place to raise kids. I had a sister at that time too, who had just been born, and we moved over Maryland. We had some family over there. My mom took a job at Johns Hopkins. My dad worked there as well as in Baltimore. And we spent a good deal of time there. I went to a Quaker school, actually, growing up.
• [00:39:23.29] It was very eye opening for me, because the Quakers, their form of prayer, was actually very inclusive. If anybody has actually experienced going to a meeting house-- And we used to go to meeting houses, it's been a long time now, but I think every Monday, if I recall. Very plain space, there's no pictures, nothing. And you just spend your time and you do what was called centering. All throughout elementary school, we did this centering. It's really meditation: reflect on your life and whatever you're doing. And this is very much in tune with what I was learning also at Sunday school. I would be going to Sunday school on a regular basis, where we would learn about Islam. And very similar, about reflecting on our values, learn how to pray, how two acknowledge God, live a good life, be honest, don't cheat, respect your parents, all these sorts of things. This is really what we were learning in Sunday school.
• [00:40:23.34] Then we moved, very briefly, to Beaumont, Texas. Now I still don't understand what my parents thinking was when they did this. But Beaumont, Texas, for those of you don't know, was where the movie Footloose was filmed. And that's way back too, but that's its only claim to fame. A very small town, and let's just say, I was the token Mexican. No matter what I said, I told them my name was not Jose, they would say, OK Jose. So, that's the type of place I was in. We were there for about nine months. That that didn't last too long. It was a little bit uncomfortable, but after that, actually a much bigger move.
• [00:41:07.80] And for me this was actually quite traumatic, just the initial move. And that was to Saudi Arabia. My mom and dad had taken a position at the hospital over there in Riyadh, at one of the hospitals there. So my mom went ahead of us. So she went ahead and went there. And I had visions, just like all of you probably have visions if you haven't been Saudi Arabia, although in today's day and age, you've probably seen pictures videos. This is back, way back.
• [00:41:37.67] I thought we were going to live in a tent also. I thought there was going to be a camel outside. We're going to be living in a tent. And this is my vision. And I was Muslim. This is coming from a Muslim family, and this was my image of what it was. My mom would write letters, and we would write back. This is before email and whatnot. Anyways, when we got to Saudi Arabia, it was eye opening. I mean we lived on this compound, that was essentially, the best way I can describe it, it was like a resort-- literally, a three mile across resort. It's a walled-in area, where you have people from all over living there, mostly not Saudis. They were actually all Americans, Europeans, and whatnot. So it was this multicultural place, but more from outside. And we lived in this resort world.
• [00:42:25.65] This is relevant to my experience over here. I told I was going to Sunday school, and all this kind of stuff. One thing that happens over here for Muslims in America and people of many other faiths. is you're paranoid. You're paranoid by the outside culture, and all the different pressures that are out there. And your parents, they're like, no, no you got to go Sunday school, you've got to learn about your faith. And make sure that they're keeping on top of you, can't do this, can't do that, can't do this, because you might get in with wrong people.
• [00:42:52.19] Well, they got to Saudi Arabia, and they said, well, this is a Muslim country. No problem here, you'll just absorb things by osmosis or something of that sort. And frankly, we are on his compound that's quite secure, and they just let you go free. And do whatever you want to do. So let me just say, I was an OK kid before that.
• [00:43:13.60] I got to Saudi Arabia, and I could say that I got in to pretty much anything and everything you can get into that you would expect to happen over here, but actually was going on over there. And I was definitely on the wrong track. I was heading to being a juvenile delinquent, basically. I mean that's really where I was headed. And it was not good, a lot of the stuff that we did. I won't go into detail on that. I'm sure people want to hear. But why I say this is, really, this is the kind of person I had become. I really was like a juvenile delinquent.
• [00:43:51.58] My mom took me to do the Umrah, which is the pilgrimage, it's a smaller pilgrimage, to Mecca. I went with her, because she took me along. I had no choice, really. And I went. I mean that's really how I thought about it. I've got to go, OK. And I went in, literally, to the to the Great Mosque there. I walked in, and men have to wear two towels. So I am wearing these towels, and I am thinking in my head, I still remember this, why do I got to wear this stuff. Is stuff going to fall off? This is uncomfortable. That's all I was thinking about. I was not in some spiritual mind frame or a mindset or anything of the sort, nothing.
• [00:44:30.38] I walked in, and I saw the Ka'bah. The black cube that you've seen, that all of you've seen. I saw the Ka'bah, and I heard this hum. I just heard this hum. And I told you, I walked in like a punk. And I started crying. I just started crying. When when I think about that, like, what happened? I just started crying. And something just happened. I didn't even want to be near my mom. Like I said, I'm this tough guy. I didn't want to be near her. I just did my own pilgrimage by myself.
• [00:45:08.83] The whole time I was like, God, what have I been doing, what have I been doing? Please save me from the path that I'm on. Please save me from the path that I am on. I respect my brother Khidr, and what he was saying that our parents raised us, and they did, But we all go through this experience. It's a choice. It's a choice that we make. And at that point, I made a choice to follow my faith and to live it. And when I came back, when we came back and we landed, I literally lost all my friends. The same story that Chris was sharing about Mike, and how he lost his friends. Because we basically had nothing in common anymore. You want to go vandalize this, you want to go do this, you want to go do that, no, no, no,. I had to have a whole new set of friends.
• [00:45:56.51] So now we get to America. I want to get to this. This is important. In Saudi Arabia, in the American school system, here it comes, it only goes to the ninth grade for the American school system. And after that, the tradition was that you just go to boarding school or your parents move back. So I went to boarding school. My best friend before I had gone to the pilgrimage, he had gone to boarding school. He was one year older than me. He got kicked out. He went to the Northeast schools, one of the nice schools over there. He got kicked out for doing drugs and alcohol and dealing them and whatnot. This is the type of path that I was going to be on. So my parents were very wary of sending me to boarding school, but they knew that I had changed. But they didn't even want to send me in vicinity, like the radius of the eye. I was going to go Deerfield Academy from his home state, but they didn't even want to send me where I could even be contacted.
• [00:46:48.29] So I went to Florida for boarding school. Now again, the irony is that my parents wanted to send me someplace where I'm preserving my faith and all this kind of stuff. Well I go to this boarding school, I was the only Muslim there. It's like a thousand student school total, but in high school probably a lot less. Anyways, I'm the only Muslim there in a Florida boarding school.
• [00:47:08.84] Florida boarding schools are very different from Northeastern boarding schools or prep schools. We have uniforms but they are a lot more lax and whatnot. I Was there the first day, and we have study hall, and our study halls are in our dorm rooms. You just open the door, and you have monitors and you study.
• [00:47:29.95] I had to make a choice. I got there my first day, and remember my parents left me, and they're gone thousands of miles across the sea. Imagine that for a young man just entering high school. And I had to make a choice. Am I still a Muslim? Do I believe in this, because this is not comfortable. I had to pray. It was prayer time. Study hall coincided with prayer time. And when we pray, it's very specific time we have to pray, and specific motions and whatnot you have to do, and you can't talk to somebody.
• [00:47:59.34] I had a roommate. I told my roommate right away. My roommate came from a Georgia, from southern Georgia. I wasn't expecting him to have necessarily have ever met a Muslim or know anything about it. And of course he didn't. And I told him, I said look I'm a Muslim. He's like, you're what? I'm a Muslim, OK? I'm going to pray right now. This is what I've got to do. I cannot speak to anybody, somebody can not walk in front of me, and I'm going to pray. So I pray. He's like, OK, that's fine. So I pray.
• [00:48:24.92] By the time I'm done praying, and prayer only takes 10 minutes. There were 20 people in my room. One guy would come, he would be like, [SHHH]. Another guy would come, [SHH]. 20 guys and I am trying to pray. And I can't talk to them at that point, I can't do anything. So anyways, I finished my prayer. They had a million questions. They're asking me, where's your idol, what're you doing, all this kind of stuff. Of course, we don't pray to idols. OK, that's the stop sign. But we don't pray to idols, we don't do all that stuff.
• [00:48:54.03] But the point is, I answered all their questions, because I had chosen my identity. I had chosen to be a Muslim. Nobody forced me to be a. Muslim I am confident in my faith. I'm confident in who I am, and I respected who they were. And this is what I'm going to end on. When I left boarding school, the seniors went out, they were all going out, and we're all buddies. And I played basketball in high school. I played while I was fasting, did all this kind of stuff, they all knew about all the stuff that I had gone through. We were buddies.
• [00:49:22.85] And they're all going to the strip club. That's where they were heading for their senior party. Of course I told you know, I'm not going. And they said, come on, come on. Some of them were like, come on, just go, you can just turn the other way, and not look. What's the big deal, right? But before I could even say anything, a lot of the guys stepped up and said no, leave him alone. That's what he wants to do, that's what he wants to do. And then they all shook my hand and said, I respect you. If you respect me, don't go. That's where it ended.
• [00:49:55.24] But all I can say is that I think experiences vary, but that's where I come from in terms my Muslim American experience. Of course there's a lot more now. I'm thirty five years old now, so you know I'm married, I have three kids, I went to the University of Michigan. There is a lot more, but I think that's enough to share my perspective.
• [00:50:20.32] SHERMAN JACKSON: Wow, what a treat. OK, Our final speaker is Mr. Shmael Hague. Shmael grew up in Detroit and Livonia, where he lettered in high school wrestling. He went on to complete his bachelor's degree and masters degree in public health at the University of Michigan. While there he won a national championship in college boxing for the University of Michigan. He then pursued medical training by completing medical school at Michigan State University, and completing training as both a neurologist and psychiatrist at Henry Ford Hospital. During his medical training, he and his wife, Sadia Shakir, starred in a reality television show called 30 days as a Muslim that aired on fx. As well as made a guest appearance on the Oprah Winfrey Show. He now runs a memory and neuropsychiatric clinic at Henry Ford West Bloomfield Hospital, and is happily married with three children. Shamael Hague.
• [00:51:28.43] SHAMAEL HAGUE: In the name of God, the most beneficent and most merciful, As-Salamu 'Alaykum, peace be unto you all. I think the best part of that is, I'm happily married with three kids. Yes, yes, it does deserve a clap. It's really interesting the way this progressed. We started with people who embraced the faith, to somebody who lived overseas, and lived the faith. And now you're to me, where I was born Muslim. And I've grown up in southeast Michigan, lived here all my life. Oh, my God. I really haven't been outside of the southeast Michigan area. So I'm going to talk you more about the challenges of growing up as a Muslim, especially in the southeast Michigan area.
• [00:52:16.56] I grew up in Detroit about till seven years old, and that was an interesting time. I'm a son of working class family. My dad was an engineer at Chrysler initially, now Ford. And my mom was a day care worker. And I still recall in Detroit, we used to get paddled, actually, growing up in school. It's something that's unheard of now. But I really enjoyed the time there.
• [00:52:45.56] We moved over to Livonia. Livonia-- it's a great city, but most people don't know this unusual fact about it, it's the largest population in the nation with the least diversity. It has over a 100,000 people and really 98%, 99% Caucasian. And the school I went to, Churchill was on the border of Westland and Livonia, so a lot of working class, primarily Caucasians.
• [00:53:14.81] So, much like Haaris, the challenge was how do you maintain your faith in the environment of the dominant culture? And so for example, you know there's certain rules that we can certainly talk about in the question and answer, but some of those rules would be Muslims didn't date, when they got to know somebody that was for the intention of marriage. That's the way that my parents raised me. Muslims didn't drink alcohol, didn't eat pork. I mean these things became a challenge when you're going to school. Middle school, I still recall, the homecoming queen asked me out for prom.
• [00:53:57.01] Yeah, that's right. She's here in the audience. No, so that was a challenge, to turn the homecoming queen down. But yes, that was interesting. I mean just to try to explain why I believe the way I did. The other thing was, when I got high school it got even more challenging. Obviously with drugs and the delinquent behavior, a lot of people that you grew up with, I mean, I think we've all been through those kinds of experiences. Your parents tell you, don't go to those bad friends, and go to the good friends.
• [00:54:31.60] And so there I really got the challenge of, they didn't know my parents' were originally India and Pakistan. I'm not Arab, never been Arabia. Kind of had the same impression that Haaris did. But unfortunately in high school, they thought I was Arab. So I used to get sand nigger, towel head, rag head, and my all time favorite was, your camel's double parked outside.
• [00:55:04.39] Explaining to people, when we were fasting during the month of Ramadan, yeah, I'm sitting in the lunch room, I still wanted to hang out with my friends. But it was a challenge to obviously eat there because this food tastes really good, and the pressures that come with that. Or explaining to people, we didn't eat pork. And a lot of times they took that, and twisted in a different way. They said, oh, are you allowed to call a cop a pig, or can you speak pig Latin, can you throw a pig skin football? And these kinds of jokes.
• [00:55:34.61] So those are the pressures that being Muslim one had to face and go through. I can say though, faith is kind of what was your anchor, and what really kept you going. And I think, if it weren't for faith and the conviction that I wanted to maintain, it wouldn't have gotten me through some of the pressures that a lot of us face in high school, a lot of the things that happen. The other thing I wanted to mention, on a separate note, was I'm also a child of a very mixed background. Dr. Jackson talked about America being the most diverse Muslim community in the world. I can tell you that I've lived that. I'm a Sunni Muslim, born to Indian and Pakistani parents, who grew up primarily in Dearborn, amongst Lebanese Shias. I used to attend their prayer services. I would hang out there. That's where I grew up, was pretty much Dearborn.
• [00:56:33.89] So isn't it amazing, it's a testament to America, that we can bring all of that kind of diversity, and yet still get along. And be able to progress. And I think that's a great testament to America. But those were some of the challenges I just wanted to describe. Going forward, I think the thirty days show really outlined what life was like as a Muslim. And I'd encourage you all to, unfortunately a shameless plug, but really check out the video. It's a great video on living life as a Muslim.
• [00:57:10.14] SHERMAN JACKSON: Is it upstairs?
• [00:57:10.93] SHAMAEL HAGUE: It might be. I don't know. You can Google video it. Just write in 30 Days as a Muslim. But I just wanted to highlight those things. I think boxing, and finding those releases was also important, not only faith, but sports. I think boxing was also challenge. You know going to different events, and the pressures that came with that. I think it was, again, faith was something that really got me through that. Just wanted to leave you all with that. There are things in life that we all face, and where we can turn to faith as something that's an anchor for all of us. Thank you.
• [00:57:58.13] SHERMAN JACKSON: Yes, now we have the pleasure of being able to entertain questions from the floor. And I am simply going to go through some questions that I have here. And I guess, none of them are addressed to any particular panelist. So I guess anybody who wants to speak to the to the question, can do so. The first one is, could the panelists please speak a bit about being Muslim in the post 9/11 reality.
• [00:58:32.47] HAARIS AHMAD: I guess I can start. 9/11 rocked everybody's world. It is one of those events, everybody remembers where they were when it happened. I had just finished law school. And I think I was making some career decisions at that point. So I remember waking up, turning on the tv, and seeing what was happening, and feeling this chill just go down my spine. And I remember crying, remember crying. It really was surreal. And I think everybody shares that type of experience. It was a surreal experience.
• [00:59:16.78] At that point, I was reacting more as a human being and as an American rather than and as a Muslim in particular, or anything of the sort. Because I was just thinking, wow, this is actually happening. My dad used to work here. This was where I was born. This just can't be happening. This can't be happening. The reason it was a whirlwind for me after that is because I was asked and approached by a civil rights organization, right after that. I just graduated from law school, remember this. I was asked to take the helm of the Michigan chapter of the most prominent and largest Muslim civil rights organization. That's the Council on American Islamic Relations of Michigan.
• [01:00:10.52] The next two or three years of my life were a whirlwind. I mean I was at the center of this huge fallout that happened, and continues to happen actually. In fact for Muslims, I think we're starting to feel the brunt of it a lot more now, than even right after. And so we had to deal with this quite a lot. We had lots of cases coming in of discrimination. Obviously, there was a lot of outreach, people wanting to know about what is Islam, what are Muslims, who are Muslims. This kind of thing. We did a tour throughout the state. I would be coming home really, really late. My wife a sitting right here, that's why I'm pointing right here, because she remembers. But in fact, she was with me, initially. She was there helping me. But in any case, it was a whirlwind. How did it affect?
• [01:01:05.92] I wish that 9/11 did not happen, for so many reasons. And and one of them being just effect that it has had on Muslims and Islam, and the perception of Muslims and Islam across the world. There is one point something billion Muslims, and for the acts of this small group, and believe me, this is a small group of extremists, that all of us despise. And they repulse all of us. But our whole entire population got painted with them. They became our ambassador's somehow.
• [01:01:49.27] If you want to know what do Muslims think about, we worry about all the same stuff as you. We worry about our kids and their education, and saving for that, and paying the bills, and socializing, all that kind of stuff, whatever. We worry about that. But I don't think there's a day that goes by for a Muslim in America, especially now, that they don't think about the effects of 9/11. And the effects and the image of Muslims in America, and the perception, and the stuff, the nasty stuff that is being said about us. And the future that our kids are going to have to live in, we think about this, in their country, in their country, our country, their country. At least I speak another language, my parents taught it to me, but my daughter she's been to almost every state in the United States. She hasn't actually traveled overseas, but I'm worried about the world that she's going to live in and grow up in, or that they're going to grow up in.
• [01:02:41.62] So yes, it has affected us. And it does. To the point where when we speak on the phone with each other, I can't call up Shamael and be like, that game was the bomb, oh, so sorry. Like that type of thing. Paintballing-- somebody texted me today, hey you want to go paintballing with a bunch of guys two weeks from now. I got to think about that.
• [01:03:08.98] I can't be caught paintballing, because I'll be on Fox News tomorrow. And then it will be like, these guys are training. These are all the things that go through our heads now. Everything is like, with these lies we can't even be who we are. So if you meet a Muslim, and they're acting kind of awkward, think about what's going through their head. Because they're a little bit nervous. Well, that's my take.
• [01:03:33.76] SHAMAEL HAGUE: I just wanted to add two things to that. First, we're here as American Muslims. Both parts of that are our identity. So as Americans, we obviously feel the sadness. And every year you see the 9/11 anniversary, we all feel that pain for what it did to our country. As Muslims, there's a part of me that obviously, as he said, we despise that. But I think, maybe despise might not be the right word, but I guess I'm just discouraged by or disappointed with, is that somehow it is seen that Muslims must explain the actions of these people. That every Muslim has to. For example, and we can talk about this in more detail, things like the Ground Zero mosque or whatnot. It's as if American Muslims have explaining to do about why these things are happening, or why they continue to happen.
• [01:04:39.14] And the reality is that as Americans, and as Muslims, who are peaceful and loving, they really have nothing to do with us. We are who we are in this country, and we intend to maintain it-- our peace. The only thing that's there is the share of faith. We share faith, but I mean that could be said about a lot of other acts that have happened in the past. Whether slavery could be explained as a sharing of race by people, or the acts of Oklahoma City, in 1993, could be explained by the sharing of faith by certain Christian groups. We can't lump all peoples together based on the actions of few, and I really want stress that.
• [01:05:22.14] SHERMAN JACKSON: OK, I have a question here that just provides an opportunity for a point of clarification. The question reads, I would like to hear from some Muslim women about their experience. Actually, this panel was on sons of America, and there had been a separate panel that included all women, in which women, Muslim women, did talk about their experiences. So we're not avoiding the topic of women. This is just simply not the forum for that discussion.
• [01:05:51.68] TIM GRIMES: I also do want to say, I'm Tim Grimes from the library, that if you're interested in that, that is on our web site aadl.org, because we did film it. So it's available if you're interested in the topic. It's available for everyone to see.
• [01:06:03.59] SHERMAN JACKSON: Excellent, thank you Tim. OK, we have a question here. How would you respond if your son or daughter expressed interest in practicing a different religion?
• [01:06:22.80] KHIDR NAEEM: We sit down, and you talk to her. What is it that makes you interested, what is it about the faith? And you sit and talk them. If my son or my daughter-- I'm a little funny with my daughter. My son, I'll sit down, I believe I've given him that icon of manhood and everything. I'm a little funny with my daughter. As soon as I hear the opposite sex has something to do with it. I'm thinking differently. OK, I'm thinking differently. I said I'm thinking differently.
• [01:07:00.68] But no, you find out. Because I had that conversation with my mother and my father. My father he like grabbed me and said, so what's this? And I talked with them. You talk to them. OK, I don't want to go to U of M, I want to go to Michigan State. Ooh. You talk to them. I think Michigan State has a better, this. Really? Really? He's been at your house hasn't he? So you just have a conversation with them, and that's what I would do. And then I would kill them. Hey, Tim, are we still being taped?
• [01:07:39.11] HAARIS AHMAD: That's what's going to be on Fox News. Yeah, it'll be that clip.
• [01:07:43.89] SHERMAN JACKSON: Anybody else want to add?
• [01:07:47.24] HAARIS AHMAD: I think that's it. I mean, I think that's the philosophy. I mean we have the same thing. My eldest daughter's eight years old, and already I talked to her about drugs, alcohol, all that kind of stuff, because I want her to be ready. It's not too soon. And then I did test her on dating. I said, do what a date is? She said sure. She said khajoor. And that's the Urdu word for dates, like the one's you eat. So I said, OK, cool. We can talk about that later. That's good.
• [01:08:25.65] But I think that's the main thing. The attitude is to talk about it, because, look at the end of the day, there's no compulsion in religion. Of course you desire for your kids what you desire for yourself. We love our faith, and we would like them, just like anybody else, you'd like them to grasp those values and share those values. But if something happens, you can only pray for them, and try to guide them. That's it.
• [01:08:50.78] SHERMAN JACKSON: OK, next question, what resources in quotation marks, are available to those of us who are non Muslim to give to those who are fearful of Islam when it comes to, quote why don't moderate Muslims come out publicly against the radical Muslims who want to destroy the West.
• [01:09:12.30] SHAMAEL HAGUE: I've got one for you. Go to the website cair.org. I'm sure they C-A-R-E too, but it is C-A-I-R. That's the Council of American Islamic Relations. They have a link to a 68 page list of all the different scholars or moderates who have condemned 9/11 and some of the actions thereafter. So 68 pages, I'm not sure what more needs to be said after that. It's a pretty exhaustive list of some of the most influential Muslim scholars in the world. And again, I have to reiterate this point. It's not often that people have to explain the actions of others. Part of this question lends itself to that, is that somehow I have to explain the actions of people who are brethren in my faith. They may have a lot of different reasons than I do, and I think some of their reasons are very misguided. I think that's probably the way to leave it.
• [01:10:30.51] SHERMAN JACKSON: OK, next question, do you believe that Sufi, I assume they mean Sufis are given their share in decision making in our mosques.
• [01:10:50.48] HAARIS AHMAD: OK, actually, it depends what mosque you're talking about or whatever it is, but to be honest, most people don't ask you for a badge. Hey, wait, can I see your Sufi badge. You don't have like a stamped passport or something like that. So I think that a large majority of mosques are actually open to whoever actually shows up and wants to participate. I mean, really that's what it is. Most people don't even want to volunteer. Of course there are issues with-- what do we have, like 2000, something like that-- the mosques across America.
• [01:11:28.44] There are issues with some of them in terms of inclusion. But that's just like many other faiths. And perhaps it's more pronounced in mosques simply because you may have a larger immigrant population. And also the mix that Dr. Jackson had mentioned. You got people from 70 different countries coming, and mixing with each other. And you have indigenous, as well as immigrant. And so you get issues there. I'm just trying to get to what the question is. It seems like it was actually asked by a Muslim.
• [01:11:59.63] CHRIS ABDUR-RAHMAN BLAUVELT: I think we need to define Sufi, because maybe some people don't know what a Sufi is.
• [01:12:04.03] HAARIS AHMAD: Well, I'm sorry. Dr. Jackson?
• [01:12:09.62] SHAMAEL HAGUE: Nobody on this panel is the professor of Islamic studies.
• [01:12:11.98] SHERMAN JACKSON: No, no, no. Some of my students are here, so that will be considered cheating. Well Sufis, what they're talking about is an expression of a combination of ascetic and a mystical Islam. So there are Muslims who are more ascetic, in terms of renouncing or doing away with the pleasures of the world, in order to purify the self. And along side that, there is a mystical element that seeks to heighten the intensity and the experiental component of one's relationship with God. In other words, to go from God as a concept, that's something that we think about, theologize about, to God as an actual experience. And that experience can range from just God's imminent presence on the one hand, all the way up to actual, mystical union with God on the other. And there are a range of expressions of Sufism. Sufism is not just one thing. Sufism is an orientation, generally known as Islamic mysticism.
• [01:13:30.21] CHRIS ABDUR-RAHMAN BLAUVELT: Can I just make a point? It's not about this question, but the question before. So with all due respect, I don't think the people that are questioning Muslims are going to go, like a 68 page document is going to do much to convey, like persuade them that Muslims aren't radical or trying to take over the world. But I would just encourage, if you're a non Muslim and you have a friend who thinks that about Muslims, just try to get them to meet Muslims. Usually, that's all it really takes. I think we're all pretty nice guys and girls.
• [01:14:01.96] HAARIS AHMAD: Not all of us.
• [01:14:03.20] CHRIS ABDUR-RAHMAN BLAUVELT: Not all of us. I'm trying to think of like maybe movies, or is deep Youtube videos, or something.
• [01:14:11.33] HAARIS AHMAD: There's also, myfaithmyvoice.com I want to say. My Faith My Voice, if you really want to hear from Muslims, who are organically just making their own videos, because I think they got fed up with the fact that somebody else's painting and defining the faith for them or for us. They just basically started doing Youtube videos. Now some are produced just a first, or one or two. But the other ones are people who are just turning it on, and then saying stuff about themselves. Like, there's been a lot been said about Muslims lately, well here's what I think. So you can hear it from them. So, myfaithmyvoice.com or .org If somebody looks up.
• [01:14:50.04] KHIDR NAEEM: May I ask finally, watch their deeds, watch their deeds. I can tell you anything that I need, watch how I act, watch their deeds. That will either affirm or betray, watch their deeds.
• [01:15:05.27] SHERMAN JACKSON: Well let me introduce my question, and I can hit two birds with one stone, it's addressed to me, so I guess I'll try and answer lest somebody think I'm just avoiding questions here. Do you have a vision for a Muslim future in the United States? Yes I do, but my vision for Islam in the United States is not a vision that focuses only on Muslims. I really do think that as a country, almost as an experiment, we are at another critical juncture in our history as a nation. And one of the things that concerns me about the present moment, is that our national identity is ever so subtly changing.
• [01:16:03.94] And we are, in a sense, forgetting what it means for us to be Americans. And I don't mean that in any kind of expression of patriotism to any particular government or administration. But I'm talking about the meaning of what it means to be American. And part of that meaning is that, we as a nation are a negotiated identity. That is that we get together, we agree, we disagree, we compromise, we dig in.
• [01:16:39.63] We have a process of negotiating who we are, and that process, unlike other countries in the world, can produce multiple possibilities of equal authenticity. That's what America was always meant to be, going all the way back to the founding fathers. People like Benjamin Franklin said, that if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send an emissary here, to teach the religion of Mohammed, he would find a pulpit waiting for him.
• [01:17:14.00] And if Islam proves to be not worthy in the sight of the American people, then it will be marginalized, and it will die the death of so many other ideologies that Americans thought to be unfit. That's who we are, from our inception. You know if we were France, we would never be sitting around trying to decide, let's see what language are we going to speak as our national language? We had to decide that as Americans.
• [01:17:41.54] And the point that I'm trying to make here is that, the present moment is one in which there are forces out there, that are trying to get Americans to stop the process of negotiating, in terms of who we are. Of insisting that their understanding of what it means to be American is the understanding. And everybody else, without negotiation, simply has to conform to that. If that movement is successful, we will all be impoverished in this country, all of us.
• [01:18:16.23] And so my future, my vision for America, is one in which Muslims make their contribution to sustaining the negotiated character of the American project. And I say that, to come back to this question of, why don't Muslims speak out? I mean, I too have my problems with, why do I have to answer for other Muslims? But I think that, to some extent, that's human nature.
• [01:18:48.23] But beyond that, I think that sometimes we have to question the question. Because the question, oftentimes, contains lots of assumptions that are designed to lead to certain ends. I heard something, and it really struck me, because of who I heard it from. I heard from Jim Brown, the football player. If anybody knows about Jim Brown, he is very activist, very much into promoting the interest, particularly of the black, but not exclusive the black community.
• [01:19:26.61] And I heard him say once, he said, people talk about Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier. He said, Jackie Robinson didn't break the color barrier. Branch Rickey broke the color barrier. Branch Rickey was the white owner of the baseball team that hired Jackie Robinson. And my point here is simply this, Jackie Robinson lived in a time of abject racial discrimination against black people in America. To say, well why aren't more white people speaking out, is to do a great disservice to people like Branch Ricky. There are millions of decent white people who were doing what they could do. The mere fact that they weren't able, at that moment, to overturn the system, should not be construed to be, well they just don't care.
• [01:20:25.19] Muslims are speaking out all the time. I think the assumption that we can only know when Muslims are speaking out, when there are no more extremists, no more idiots, no more contorted peoples left in the Muslim community. I think that's a very, unfair criteria. It would be unfair for America. It's unfair for Islam.
• [01:20:48.47] And I think that this kind of fair mindedness is a part of what we have to bring back to our country and to our social existence as a nation. And we have to understand, if we don't do it, then we will pay the price for that. And today it's the Muslims. We don't know what's going to be tomorrow. So, that's my spiel.
• [01:21:19.68] The question is entitled, for non indigenous changes your experience in your self concept post 9/11. What kinds of changes have occurred in terms of your self understanding, your understanding of yourself, a post 9/11.
• [01:21:41.43] HAARIS AHMAD: Non indigenous?
• [01:21:43.22] KHIDR NAEEM: Yeah, we're all indigenous.
• [01:21:45.11] HAARIS AHMAD: I know what they mean. I guess that we're the closest to them.
• [01:21:50.49] SHERMAN JACKSON: I'm going to take my authority here and say, anybody can answer that.
• [01:21:59.30] KHIDR NAEEM: Changes?
• [01:22:00.94] SHERMAN JACKSON: In self perception. If no one wants to--
• [01:22:07.52] KHIDR NAEEM: But changes, no. I mean the change in who I am, and who I thought I was, or who I think I am, no. There wasn't any changes. I think if I went up to the young man who had the sign, and asked him, hey, did you go to the last Klan meeting? No. Who I am? I've been identified who I am, I'm cool who I am.
• [01:22:28.03] SHAMAEL HAGUE: I think that maybe the biggest change for a lot of Muslim communities has been the need to as, Chris was talking about, get people to know who we are. And I think that's what this forum is about, and many similar type forums, open houses at mosques, and things like that. I think a lot of Muslims recognize that being comfortable in day to day life, and not explaining to people what Islam is, and what your faith is about, it's not going to be enough. You have to make yourself visible, so that people can understand who you are, and can gain an understanding. And with knowledge, ignorance can be dispelled. I think that's a lot of what we're going through in this process. And the need to engage the dominant community more, I think that was something that we all learned from 9/11.
• [01:23:27.50] CHRIS ABDUR-RAHMAN BLAUVELT: I guess for me, I did go through a lot of changes. I became Muslim three months before 9/11. I was like this really, wide eyed, happy convert, and it just rocked my boat. I was like, what did I join? It wasn't really that I doubted Islam, my faith in Islam was still there. But it was kind of like, I didn't know what a Sunni or a Shia was when I became Muslim, let alone any other differences, like who Osama bin Laden was. But I saw him on tv, and he looked like a very pious Muslim to me. He had a big beard and a turban, and I was like, shouldn't I be listening to him? So for me 9/11 was a catalyst to really, really put me on a path of searching. And I'm still on that path 10 years later. Trying to figure it out.
• [01:24:28.66] HAARIS AHMAD: I mean I had already alluded to a little bit, how it's changed my identity. One thing I'll say, in terms of being an American. You know I've always been a very patriotic and very strong American. My parents are from India and Pakistan, and we would make trips out to Pakistan, from time to time. And I would, invariably, get into very heated arguments with my cousins. All the time, because it's like an international hobby. It's not just Pakistan, it's all over the place. I mean it's not just Muslim countries, it's all over the place. You go anywhere, why is America doing this, why is America doing that.
• [01:25:05.68] But of course when we're here, we have the right, as Americans, to critique our own country. But nobody else has that right. That's the point. That's how you feel. And so I was like, you guys don't know what the heck you're talking about. You wouldn't even be around if we weren't here, that kind of thing. So I get into these types of things.
• [01:25:20.42] Now, after 9/11 happened, and they start hearing all these stories about what's happening to Muslims in America and all this kind of stuff. I have to play that role is defending America, while things are still happening to us here. They really are. We really are being targeted, but now I still play that role. But the other thing is, it's made me quite indignant to see some of the stuff that's going on. To have somebody try to take ownership of America, when they don't own America. I am part of that ownership. This is my country. So how dare you. You can leave, you go back to your country, wherever that was. Seriously, I mean, don't even try it. So, that's how I feel.
• [01:26:05.66] And I can tell you everybody on this panel, right now, I know everybody is working on it. That that's one way that we're a little bit probably different than say, people of other faiths right now, is because for self preservation. We want to stay here. It's not like I want to pick up and leave, or take my family somewhere else. This is our country. So we want to preserve what we believe America is. So we are working towards that.
• [01:26:25.97] So why are we getting more politically active? You're going to hear people telling you, ah, Muslims are getting more politically active, because they want to take over the country. First of all, we're not doing a very good job of that, are we? So secondly, the reason we're getting more politically active, and have no doubt about this, it's for self defense. Obviously, we have positive things to contribute.
• [01:26:48.27] But it is self defense. Because I do not want to see some of those people, that are saying some of that stuff, be elected into office. Unfortunately, some of them were. And I fear for my daughter. I really fear for my community. We're steps away, we're steps away from being interned. And if you don't believe it, go read your history again.
• [01:27:11.07] SHAMAEL HAGUE: I just wanted to add one last quick thing.
• [01:27:13.32] SHERMAN JACKSON: I'll let you add this last note, but this will have to be the absolute last note, 30 seconds, no more. Because we have been given notice that we have to end.
• [01:27:22.74] SHAMAEL HAGUE: 1920s Germany also elected, unemployment was high, and they did elect the fascist type voices. So it's interesting, this Muslim community is the bridge between America and the Muslim world. I was in Saudi Arabia, about a month ago. And an Egyptian minister saw me at the airport, and somehow knew right away that I was American. And asked me, what is this about the Qur'an burning? What's going on there? I kind of passed it off as just some one nut in some part of the country. He said, well why do these Americans, they hate Islam? I said, oh my gosh. You know, you're doing the same thing. You are generalizing about an entire country based on the actions of one man. And I think that's the beauty of the Muslim population here in this country is that, they can explain to the Muslim world, indeed, America's a great place to live in. And can be, as Dr. Jackson, a negotiated identity that we can all be a part of. And indeed, for America, we can explain that Islam is also a great religion that can be a contributor to peace and understanding in the world.
• [01:28:34.03] SHERMAN JACKSON: On that note, I'd like to thank all of our panelists. And thank all of you for coming. Thank you very much. Good evening.